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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Wed May 29, 2013 4:59 pm

It should it be split *further*

At the very least, Runic Constructs should be separate from Spells. Making a Golem is very different from Fire Wave.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Wed May 29, 2013 5:07 pm

...Runic constructs fall under runic physics. Stuff powered by magic is there. Enchanted stuff is under arcanics.
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Sirok

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 6:45 am

First Draft

Engineering:
Strong Forging - Tool, weapon and armor concepts can be made
Advanced Siege - Siege weapon and construct concepts can be made
Advanced Construction - Building and structure concepts can be made

Science:
Life Studies - Concepts can be formed based around animals and plants
Herblore - Concepts can be formed based around combining ingredients for better results
Basic Anatomy - Concepts can be formed based around the improvement of the humanoid body

Religion:
Structure Religion - The gods reveal concepts about religious institutions already in existance
National Pride - The gods reveal concepts about improvements to the nation as a whole
Devout Followers - The gods reveal concepts about troops and agents who are yet to be discovered

Arcanics:
Major Spells - The study of magic can help discover new major spells
Inherent Magic - The study of magic can help discover new ways to use magic
Artifacts - The study of magic can help discover ways to craft magical devices

Philosophy:
Philosophy of Language - Perhaps one can learn the concepts of linguistics for future application.
Espionage - Perhaps one can begin to discover newer, better ways to spy
The Unexplained - Perhaps one can begin to understand that which cannot be explained

Economy:
Advanced Gathering - By improving the way you gather things, money can be made!
Better Bookeepign - By improving the way your nation details information, money can be made!
Industry - By improving the way you deal with money and resources, more money can be made!

Military Code:
Better Scouting - Concepts of new, better ways to scout fall under this category
Bravery and Valour - Concepts dealing in troop stats (including attack, defense, and morale) fall under this category
Advanced Training - New melee, ranged, magic, and cavalry troops fall under this category

Social Code:
Socialization - Ways to improve discussion between nations
Caravan Improvements - Ways to improve mobile trade between nations
Advanced Trade - Ways to improve trade in general between nations
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 9:17 am

I have two problems with this:

1. It's too linear. We want a web.

2. The Hard Science you put up there is all about Biology. We also need Chemistry, Material Science.
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Jasband
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 11:00 am

Limes wrote:
I have two problems with this:

1. It's too linear. We want a web.

2. The Hard Science you put up there is all about Biology. We also need Chemistry, Material Science.

It's not really linear, he's just putting up some suggestions (which are exactly what we need at this point!). Like I said, we don't have to ONLY use the things we come up with for basic research. If a player has something else, and it fits in one of our fields and/or technology era, he can research it. The problem is, I don't want to waste my time on "Algebra" when Lime can research "Calculus."
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Sirok

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 1:46 pm

I finished this thing at two in the morning, hence why I consider it incomplete <3

What I was GOING to show you guys was mainly in the center of the octagon (I would need to clean it up in order for things to fit, though.) After the "Outer Octagon" is completed, the "Inner Octagon" will open up at mid game, which has more combined concepts. I just wanted to show what I had so far, just so you guys could approve/disapprove.

The inner octagon could have more hard science/combination concepts/webs, I just need to clean up the outer octagon. Lol.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 4:28 pm

No, those basic researches are too large. Let's take something like "espionage". How do you follow up from that? Since the technology doesn't describe what exactly got discovered, how can you improve it?

What I mean with basic research is something like, to borrow physics, for example the Ohm's law: U=RI, that allows the application of resistance components and lets us do basic calculations with electricity circuits. Now, how to follow up from that could be Joule's Law: P=RI2, which would let us do more complex circuit mathematics. If we just Ohm's Law "circuit math", how does one know to follow up to Joule's Law?
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Sirok

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 11:28 pm

First thing's first - I don't quite understand why *MATH* is on the list, nor do I understand why we need to go so deep and complex with the different theories. I think we need to keep in mind that:

A). This game isn't so complex that we need to rediscover math in order to progress.

B). People who are new to this game could be very easily overwhelmed and confused by a complex research-tree.

C). This whole process needs to be structured enough that someone can look at it and be able to understand without having to wikipedia everything known to man.

Now, it could be just that I'm trying to defend my work, which I'll totally own, but as a new god-wars player with a decent grasp on what all is needed, I don't think we need to add every style of concept known to man. While I do want to play along with the idea of largely open-ended research projects being entirely up to the player from the get-go; I also feel that the overhaul you're trying to accomplish is way too complicated and tailored to people who are familiar with the complete ins and outs of the game.

Now, the reason I feel a research n-gon works is because it can provide a simple, concise way of structuring the open-ended research base. By having the different points being different concepts, we can then at least BEGIN to plot how we want the game to progress. So far, it's been a lot of lists, and while that's all well and good, we need to also start putting these lists into something other people can understand.

In short terms of the research n-gon; The outer shell is a basic, linear path to the second shell. People are not forced to go through all of the researches to get to the second shell, rather they are given many options to pursue in order to build up for their own goals. The second shell will be more like a web - Certain research projects will require advancements in multiple fields - Magical siege weapons would require Engineering and Arcanics, for example. This will make people have to think strategically as to which concepts they would need to go down in order to get to what they want.

The part about "Tiers" I mentioned was really in reference to the opening of the shells. The first shell is open at the beginning - Anyone can research anything in the first shell (In linear order; Strong Forging, then Advanced Siege, then Advanced Construction - this leads them to the second shell, but they still only have access to engineering.) Once they are in the second shell, there may be one or two more linear concepts, but after that they would need to complete other paths in order to have access to more research concepts. (For Magical Siege, they would need to complete the Arcanics path.)
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 30, 2013 11:34 pm

Well, my original idea was to have a certain number of fields, stuff everyone knows what they are, just from the name, and then after that, nothing charted. Free Domain, although monitored by the Gamemaster for Fairness. In my opinion, it was specific enough so that any possibility of Idea had a location, and was focused enough so that everyone knew where their idea went.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 31, 2013 9:39 am

I don't like what you're saying here, Siroki. There are no "shells", no mysterious "thresholds" you pass through or anything like that. There is this one completely and entirely open research base that has simply been categorized to incite ideas from the players and give everyone some tools on how to handle it. All we need to do is provide some examples to give reference as to what level the science of the game begins from and show the progression speed. But, those are simply examples. At no point in the game is the player required to research any of the examples we're going to provide, unless they are direct necessity of the technology they want.

To borrow the previous example with some electricity physics:

Let's say we have a field of electricity physics. We could give an example technology, "Ohm's Law", and somebody thinks it's crap. They don't want to research it, instead opting to research "Coulomb's Law". You don't need Ohm's Law to get Coulomb's Law, so how can I require the player to know Ohm's Law first? Now, if the player wanted to get Joule's Law, they'd just have to research Ohm's Law, because you can't get Joule's Law without Ohm's Law.

Get what I'm saying? The point isn't really in the specific examples that don't give pretty much any benefit to anyone - you won't do anything with Joule's Law in this game - but in the style of basic research I want it to be. Simply saying "I have studied espionage" does not tell anything about what was discovered. If it was something like "studies on human suppleness" (which should be found in life sciences), one would immediately know what was achieved and can develop increased sneaking techniques from it, next one could be a basic study on locking mechanisms in engineering tree, which would then allow one to create better lockpicks to equip their spymasters with. Suppleness studies may also lead to a training program for your soldiers that allows them to be more flexible and maybe even give them a dodge chance in combat (I'd give you the method of defining dodge success), and locking mechanism studies can also create better locks to protect you from enemy spymasters.
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Sirok

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 31, 2013 2:51 pm

Hmmm...

That does make sense. so you want to have a small to medium list of example concepts that can help olayers start out on their own oaths in order to develop their own custom tree?

if so, I think there is still something we can do to add some structure to this, and it sounds really obvious, but:

we start out with a line with the various topics. as people begin doing custom research that is approved by you, and it gegs cimpleted without interruption (that is, it doesnt get precidented by someone elses reasearch) then it gets added above the similar field. so if we have, say, arcanics, and the first thing someone researches is a major soell that blocks firestorm, then the spell gets added above arcanics as a sort of rung on a ladder. if arcanics keeps being developed, then others who have not studied arcanics at all yet want to get the higher "leveled" (for lack of a better word) research must start either climbing the ladder manually, or trade the "rungs" from someonr else.

i wil post an example later, but does this sound better? (im about to start working, so dont expect it for a while lol)
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 31, 2013 3:24 pm

Yes.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 31, 2013 3:52 pm

Not sure what you're going after, there, but I'm not sure if it's really necessary to announce the stuff people have on the front page. I mean, we do, afterall, have limited space (although that space is massive). Also, cross-field research will be hugely difficult in formatting. And lastly, there is the fact that one may not need Aegis to do something else. That is, Aegis is actually an applied research, and applied research rarely has any followup. Though in the case of machinery and such, parts may not need to be reinvented. I can't think of any immediate followup for the Aegis spell, though.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 31, 2013 3:58 pm

Take it Back, I Don't Want it - Reflects damage back

Followed by...

Cain's Spell
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