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Jasband
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PostSubject: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 15, 2013 6:49 pm

DIPLOMACY


Armies aren't the only ways to get things done in GW5. The strategic use of Diplomacy can allow you to obtain things you might not be able to attain otherwise. It can also provide you with friends that will help you in many situations.

While you're never restricted from simply talking to other factions, official agreements must be made using Diplomats. In order for Diplomacy to be conducted, one of your Diplomats must either:

  1. Visit one of another faction's Settled or Advanced regions, or
  2. Meet with another faction's Diplomat face-to-face, in a region that may or may not be owned by either of you.

Once Diplomacy has begun, there are several agreements which may be reached:

  • A Trade Agreement is exactly what it sounds like: Two factions agree to exchange a set amount of resources for Gold, other resources, or something else that is physical, like an Artifact. This does not involve the trading of technologies or research. By the tenants of honorable negotiation, both parties must ensure the safety of the other faction's Caravans and hold up their end of the deal.
  • A Map Information request is, like a Trade Agreement, one of the simplest deals you can make. It involves asking an NPC State to reveal all of the regions they currently own, while you can offer to do the same. Because the size of a faction greatly determines its wealth and power, this agreement may be difficult to achieve with larger NPC States who don't respect you.
  • An Alliance is an official declaration that comes with both benefits and consequences. The benefits include:

    • Avoiding the Caravan toll to enter the domain of an ally.
    • Eliminating the Morale penalty incurred when aiding a non-allied faction's troops in battle.
    • Allowing an allied Commander to maintain your control of an army in battle.
    • Granting Military and Teleportation Matrix access. This means that your armies will be able to march through your ally's territories and use their Mass Teleport Lodestones (MTLs), and vice versa.

      The consequences of Alliance include:
    • Direct reputation loss/gain. Depending on who you choose to ally with, NPC States may look at you more positively or more negatively. They may even attack you if you ally with a faction they're at war against.
    • Losing the chance to win the game. There is no joint victory in GW5; only one player can come out on top. This means that your alliance will have to be broken eventually.
    • Coming up with a name. Well, this one is only half-serious, but all Alliances must be named. Creating a flag is optional.



  • A Vassalage offer is when you ask a weaker faction to join your empire while retaining their own rulership. Basically, your vassals will send you a percentage of the resources and Gold they've gathered each season, and you can use their military whenever you need it. In return, you let them rule themselves.
  • A Research Agreement is a deal between two factions to either trade learned knowledge and technologies, or jointly develop new ones. Gifting learned knowledge can be done by any Agent. It will take the receiving faction a number of seasons to comprehend it, however. Joint research requires a Professor to travel to another faction's Settled or Advanced region to work on the project.
  • A Military Access Agreement basically asks another faction if your armies can march through their regions without repercussion. If your armies attack something, the agreement is obviously broken.
  • A Teleportation Access Agreement requests that another faction's Teleportation Matrix be opened up for you to use. If that faction lets you use their Teleportation Matrix for a set period of seasons, you will retain access for 2 more afterwards. For example, if I let Zaros use my Teleportation Matrix for 3 seasons, he could in reality use it for 5. This is due to the MTLs having to be reconfigured to no longer recognize the other faction's men.
  • A War Declaration is not a simple matter of saying, "I declare war against Saradomin because he's blue!" When you declare war against another faction or Alliance, you should provide justification. If you don't, then your global reputation may suffer. Note that moving your troops into another faction's region is no longer an automatic War Declaration.


There is, technically, nothing preventing you from breaking these agreements. However, if you act dishonorably while conducting Diplomacy, your reputation with NPC States will suffer. The magnitude of the reputation loss, and with which NPC States it occurs, is variable. There is a general gauge to your reputation with another faction, going from highest to lowest:

  1. Allied: You are allied with this faction, so they love you. Basically. Close enough.
  2. Friendly: You've done some great things for this faction, and they highly respect you.
  3. Amicable: You've proven to be kind to this faction, but they don't know you all that well.
  4. Neutral: You have no positive or negative relations with this faction. This is the starting reputation for all players with all factions.
  5. Disliked: While you may not have offended this faction directly, some of your actions have caused them to think less of you.
  6. Hated: You've done some very aggravating things to this faction, and they're unlikely to tolerate you for much longer.
  7. At War: This one is obvious.


To act honorably in Diplomacy, follow these rules:

  1. Use Diplomats to both create and break agreements. This is especially true in cases where agreements are ongoing, such as trading 5,000 Wood for 10,000 Gold every season for 5 seasons. If you don't formally cancel the deal and simply refuse to pay the Gold, your reputation will suffer.
  2. Hold up your end of the bargain. This one is obvious! If the conditions of an agreement need to be renegotiated, use a Diplomat and avoid the bad blood.
  3. Don't kill Diplomats. This is always an option, especially if another faction's Diplomat visits one of your Settled or Advanced regions. Just know that your reputation will be hurt if you choose to do so.
  4. Don't use agreements as excuses to attack. For instance, disguising a covert attack force as a resource-laden Caravan.


ESPIONAGE


Espionage is always a tricky subject in any God Wars iteration. While letting you be secretive and stealthy is an important part of the game, there must be certain things which are made public so that fairness is protected.

The Spymaster is an Agent which uses espionage extensively. However, many things can be partially or completely hidden if you choose to do so.

The Spymaster can be sent on several different types of "missions":

  1. Information Gathering: The Spymaster can be sent to one of another faction's regions to spy and attempt to learn useful information, such as troop numbers in a region, possible defenses, future plans, disposition towards another faction, etc. Because this is mostly a passive process, the Spymaster may have to spend multiple seasons on this mission before he can bring back anything useful. Information gained does not have to relate to only the region it is gained in; if your Spymaster gets lucky, he may learn something that affects the whole faction he's spying on!
  2. Sabotage: The Spymaster can attempt to disable or destroy a building or Region Improvement. Depending on the cultural significance or expensiveness of the target, its destruction may cause a rise in Dissent in the region it's built in.
  3. Assassination: The Spymaster can be used to stealthily kill another faction's Agents and political figures, including other Spymasters.
  4. Special: Any mission that does not clearly fall into the above may be attempted, but it must be explained in great detail to the GM.

When you send one of your Spymasters on a mission, you do not have to state which type it is. That would rather defeat the purpose, right? Just PM the GM what you want to do. In your bookkeeping, the Spymaster will have two states: "Idle" and "Active". When he's on a mission, he's Active.

Furthermore, there are certain things which you may omit from your turn description, bookkeeping, or both. Here's the breakdown:

  1. When moving Agents, you do NOT have to announce their destination, but you DO have to make clear the number of seasons they'll be moving. The only exception is when a Diplomat offers to meet with another faction in a town/city or agreed meeting place, because the other faction needs to know that information. In your bookkeeping, once the Agent has arrived, indicate the region he's in.
  2. When moving armies of more than 500 men, the destination, journey length, number of troops, and troop division must be announced. This is how it currently works in GW4.
  3. An army of less than 500 men becomes a "Special Force" and can be moved secretly. However, it must still be accounted for in your bookkeeping; for instance, if I secretly move 500 Archers out of Edgeville, I do not have to announce it, but I still have to subtract 500 Archers from the troops in Edgeville in my bookkeeping. This is one of the simplest things that can be challenged with a Misinformation Check.
  4. When you move an army - either a standard one, or a Special Force whose destination you choose to announce - you may choose to declare a fake destination, but if you do, it cannot be a longer journey length than the real destination. Let's say I secretly move 500 Archers from Edgeville to NA, and it takes 2 seasons. I can declare that I'm moving them to, for instance, DM, so long as it takes no more than 2 seasons. In my bookkeeping, I still have to subtract 500 Archers from Edgeville and add them to NA, not DM, once they arrive.  
  5. Research project specifics do not have to be announced, but you DO need to make clear that you're starting one. When the project is done, the GM will announce that you've completed a project, but he won't reveal all the details of it.
  6. Regions that you're scouting don't have to be announced, but you DO need to indicate that one of your parties is being used.


Last edited by Jasband on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:35 am; edited 28 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Thu May 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Alright then, chew over Diplomacy and NPC States before I do Espionage.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Thu May 23, 2013 5:48 pm

Nice Espionage Placeholder. However, I'm still concerned that the benefits of an Alliance outweigh the Disadvantages. I do like how the Alliance doesn't have to be formal, but you can still piece together the advantages, however, I think that interacting with someone without formally declaring an alliance, a Pseudo-Alliance, if you will, on a large scale should have serious disadvantages.


Last edited by Limes on Thu May 23, 2013 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : More In-depth)
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Alright, I should have said this earlier in the brainstorming phase, but I quite disagree with the alliance thing. You can't even guarantee your own caravans' safety inside your borders, how could you guarantee an ally's? Besides, it doesn't even make much sense that somehow you're not getting robbed if you are an ally of the guy you're trading with. I mean, just consider it - Why would the bandits committing said mugging care if their victim is an ally of the local ruler or no? Or, why would the local law enforcement not deal with bandits who are targeting a foreign caravan bringing their land some needed resources or gold?

Now, if the caravan goes through someone else's territory (like I'm trading with Varrock and my caravan has to go through Lime's territory), I can understand that. But even then it doesn't mean your caravans are immune to getting ambushed. All it means is that you can trust your ally won't mug your resource/gold shipments when they pass through their territory. The chance to get robbed is always present, if not by npcs then by other players sending in a raid.

Joint research pacts are again not really a given thing. If you conduct join research with an ally, your ally may still just execute your professor when the research is complete. It would just probably mean the end of the alliance, but there's no magical force that prevents him from doing it. Just like no magical force prevents Lime from robbing my caravans that pass through his territory, ally or not. I want alliances to be something you can easily walk out of (not repercussionessly, but easily).

Now, the morale boost... Fine. Another thing that would come with military is that an allied commander can take control of your forces if none of your own commanders are present. Of course, this doesn't cover treasonous acts (like you're defending your capital with your ally, your commander dies and your ally decides to double-cross you and orders your men to bash your own walls down.)

Also, something I want to explore is tolls. When you cross borders, you pretty obviously have to pay the toll for bringing goods in/out of the land. This would tie into the caravan equipping cost, as you need to both pay the caravan taking your stuff to the other guy, and then you need to pay the tolls. I think it can be agreed that you don't need to pay the toll on an ally's territory.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 10:55 am

Well, I assumed "Allied Territory" meant your territories and someone elses, but I suppose the garrisoning system works too.

For the other ideas, I like 'em!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 12:42 pm

If you really insist on the garrison system, fine. The thing is, I don't want people being afraid to move resources because they'll be ambushed. If the chance of being ambushed in a region that is garrisoned is absurdly small, that's fine - maybe 1 out of 100 times. But I don't want to have to worry that, "Oh, I'll never be able to get the resources I need from Lime because there's 3 regions that the Caravan will get ambushed in, even though they've all got 1,000 Guards [estimated capacity of Milestone House]."

Tolls is a good idea, and can replace the alliance benefit of "Your Caravans won't be ambushed in an ally's regions", but I don't want to have to pay to send out my Caravan. Do you pay your workers to collect resources each season? No. The Caravan driver accepts the risk because he's loyal to you and your god.

In terms of joint research progress being shared, I was thinking more along the lines of if you're working on a project with an ally, letters, diagrams, and schematics of the progress you make are sent back to Professors in your territory so that the knowledge gained is stored safely. At any point in the project, if your Professor is killed, then at least you'll have some seasons' worth of work. The same is true for the other party. Since there's nothing preventing non-allied Professors from doing this as well, I was just looking for another benefit of allying. I guess there's really not that many, huh?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 12:59 pm

Actually, I think you do pay your workers for the work they do - how else would they even live? The gold you manage is pretty much just your military budget and the surplus. The other stuff happens automatically and without your input. The reasoning behind paying to send caravans is that they need supplies for their trip, and to pay the tolls. It could be something like 1,000 gold per each season of travelling, I guess, plus the tolls which would be defined by the owners of the regions you pass through.

As for getting ambushed, the system is a bit different. Each region has a certain chance of bandits spawning in them. This chance is lower for regions that are owned by someone, and 0 for territories with troops in them. However, if bandits do spawn, you won't know about them until they ambush a caravan, or they get discovered by the lawkeepers. They will get discovered if you move troops through the territory, and have a small chance of being reported to you, with the chance being inversely proportional to the distance of the nearest garrison. Taking care of bandits is an easy matter, though, and once discovered, it takes about two seasons for dispatched military units to go and get rid of them. You usually won't even lose any troops while doing so.

Further clarification: The bandits have a sphere of influence, meaning they can raid adjacent regions. If a caravan is ambushed by bandits, you won't be told which region they're based off, only where the caravan got ambushed. If you don't get rid of your bandits, they may spread, and then you'll need to do a more extensive cleanup. Hunting bandits down should be a fun little diversion, I estimate.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 7:12 pm

Not that this is a point of contention, but serfs don't get paid. They live by trading whatever they don't pay their lords as a fealty tribute, or by offering specialized services.

I think paying for Caravans is an unnecessary cost when we already have more expenses coupled with less income. Tolls are fine, but I want toll rates to be known globally so that A) You can move through regions with lower tolls if need be, and B) you can send a Caravan out with enough Gold to pay for the tolls as it reaches them. I was thinking a base toll of 100 per Settled or Advanced region. That way, moving through regions that have less chance of ambush will cost money. It could also be something like 100, 250, 500 for Wild, Settled, and Advanced.

As for the bandit system, I agree with not knowing about them until a Caravan is ambushed, but hunting for them sounds a bit tedious. Can we assume that the guards in a garrisoned region don't just sit on their asses eating donuts and are instead patrolling for bandits each season? This basically makes bandits a passive thing, unless they manage to pull off an ambush, in which case you can try to hunt them down.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 7:21 pm

Yeah, Serfs don't get paid. Although I was under the impression that Governments used Slave Labour to get their stuff, the point is that you don't pay Serfs/Slaves.

For the tolls thing, we could either have one fixed price, at the very beginning, used for the Tolls, supplies, etc, or we could go with the tolling system. But I don't think we should have both.

For Bandits, I'm pretty much to same as Ascertes. Garrisons = No Bandits, automatically. Guards don't just do nothing for 3-4 Months, they've got the Job of keeping out law-breakers or invaders, and Bandits fall under the first Category.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 7:32 pm

Well, we can ditch the equipping cost of the caravan, but there's no reason why person A couldn't demand a higher toll than what person B does. I don't want tolls to be something of an enforced, fixed number. Of course, if a player is smart and wants to avoid a political shitstorm, he will have the same tolls for everyone besides their allies. You see, favoring people and inventing tolls on the fly is bad, mm'kay?

I want you guys to keep some soldiers in your lands so people won't come whining to me about getting crushed when they sent all their soldiers to the other side of the world and someone took advantage of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 7:41 pm

I don't see why the idea of Garrisoning Regions = No Bandits Whatsoever immediately wouldn't cause people to garrison almost every Territory. (I mean, I'm not garrisoning East End/West End unless there's something Valuable. I'm probably not building roads there either)
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat May 25, 2013 7:42 pm

William, I do agree with a variable toll system - I just want a base rate to start. Factions can modify it as they wish, and it might even turn into a legitimate source of income. If a faction changes their rate, it'll be announced so everyone can adjust accordingly.

Also, when I say garrisons, I mean military troops that are stationed in a region, becoming guards (which chops upkeep in half). If the region comes under attack, those guards fight as regular troops and can be reinforced by soldiers from other regions.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:23 am

Adjusted the benefit of an alliance to just eliminate tolls in allied regions. Anything else we need to think about before I start Espionage?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:24 am

Nope.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:24 am

Limes wrote:
Nope.

What about joint research, ya narb? (I'll let William handle this one).
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:44 am

I thought we already handled that like 6 times!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:47 am

Jasband wrote:
In terms of joint research progress being shared, I was thinking more along the lines of if you're working on a project with an ally, letters, diagrams, and schematics of the progress you make are sent back to Professors in your territory so that the knowledge gained is stored safely. At any point in the project, if your Professor is killed, then at least you'll have some seasons' worth of work. The same is true for the other party. Since there's nothing preventing non-allied Professors from doing this as well, I was just looking for another benefit of allying. I guess there's really not that many, huh?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:49 am

^Yes, that
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:52 am

So... it's not exclusively a benefit of alliance, then. So how can we make some kind of research benefit for being in an alliance? That's why I was going to leave it to William!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 11:56 am

I thought the point was we didn't want alliances anymore!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 4:56 pm

Actually, when you are conducting joint research, the only ones who know about the progress are the professors, nothing is sent away, really. Let's say you are researching a cure for cancer. Would you rather take time to document and format your progress as you do it, or would you get the research over quicker and tell people how to cure cancer once you've figured it out?

I mean, I guess you can send progress reports back to your empire if you want, but that will take time.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 5:53 pm

Lord William wrote:
Actually, when you are conducting joint research, the only ones who know about the progress are the professors, nothing is sent away, really. Let's say you are researching a cure for cancer. Would you rather take time to document and format your progress as you do it, or would you get the research over quicker and tell people how to cure cancer once you've figured it out?

I mean, I guess you can send progress reports back to your empire if you want, but that will take time.

Actually, when you're researching anything, you'd be a fool not to document your progress. First of all, it's much easier to keep track of everything you try as you try it, instead of discovering something and then attempting to remember how you did it. Secondly, a lot of research involves trial and error, and you need to write down what you tried and the results.

Since the research system isn't quite finalized yet in terms of how you're going to calculate project length, maybe we can just say that every X number of seasons, documents and notes are copied and sent back to the Professors' factions. If the Professor is killed or progress is disrupted, his faction will have a "checkpoint" to start from, but they won't have the most recent developments in the project.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:05 pm

Ah, good thing project length came up! We have three ways to go here:

Let's say I want a to do something that can be achieved through the development of a machine that requires 3 distinct parts to be invented in order to work.

So, we can either have there be 1 big project that requires 5 successful random rolls (concept, part 1, part 2, part 3, assembly) that have probabilities p1, p2, p3, p4 and p5 to succeed, respectively, or we can have 5 small projects that each require only 1 successful roll with the same probabilities, respectively. OR we can have a big project which requires 1 roll that has a really small probability of succeeding (naturally, you roll once per season).

So, which one is it?

In any case, I want joint research to be dangerous @.@ no backups, if your professor dies, he dies and you get nothing!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:16 pm

"@.@"? I think that's the first time I've seen you use a smiley!

Like I said, having "checkpoints" was just an idea, but I guess it's better for you to truly hate whoever kills one of your Professors (because it means you've wasted a lot of Gold and time). As to how the project length is divided up, I'd prefer the first option. As the guy paying for the research, though, I'd want an explanation of the stages (5, in that case) and estimates of cost and success chance. I think each project should have the first and last stages (concept and delivery), with a variable number of stages in between. For estimates, "3-6 turns" is fine, but it could be more or less. You're a math guy, so I'm sure you could come up with some random chance generator that rolls between, say, 2 and 8 turns (if the estimate is 3-6).
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:25 pm

I'm going to do the checks one-by-one. First you need to pass the first check with probability p1, then the second check p2, and so on. And just as luck would have it, I think I can give you the mathematical expectation of the number of seasons it takes to research the damn thing. However, mathematical expectations aren't truly accurate, taking into account the nature of randomness.
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