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Jasband
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:30 pm

Right. I'm fine with not knowing exactly how many turns a stage will take, but I do want to know that the GM has a scope on the success chance (which is the estimate). If the estimate is a lot of turns, the probability to pass would obviously be low. If it's a few turns, the chance should be higher. Even with randomness included, I think that's reasonable.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:38 pm

I don't really generate estimates before they're asked for. That is, I will have the number of checks that need to be passed and the probabilities for each check to pass. The number of seasons you need to research depends on the number of checks and the probability for each check. It takes a little math but the numbers can be used to produce an estimate of the number of turns required. However, keeping in mind the nature of randomness, it's possible you will never successfully pass a check!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun May 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Ah, alright. I was thinking of it backwards, but so long as an "essier" stage has an overall higher chance to succeed, and a "harder" stage has a lower chance, I'm fine with it. I know that may not always be the case because research is a silly and annoying thing, even in real life Razz.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Mon May 27, 2013 8:11 am

Yeah, like how I somehow have been researching Steamboats for 18 turns. -.-
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 10:32 am

Finally got Espionage in there. I'm sure the breakdown will need more specifics, but I need some breakfast before I can come up with any more ;_;
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 3:13 pm

Nope, I disagree with a few points. First, there's the special force thing. While I agree that special forces can be moved without having to give any destination, I disagree that only special forces can feed a false destination. What's stopping me from dividing an army of 10,000 into twenty special forces and saying I'm doing something other than what I'm in reality doing? It's just simpler to allow fake destination for everything. Besides, it should keep everyone alert. Letting your guard down can and probably will get you killed.

Second, announcing new technologies. Not at first, no, but your spies will all learn of it eventually. I want to give people who complete research a head start of sorts.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 3:31 pm

Lord William wrote:
What's stopping me from dividing an army of 10,000 into twenty special forces and saying I'm doing something other than what I'm in reality doing?

A fuckton more bookkeeping. Yes, that's reason enough to discourage it, but if someone were really desperate I suppose they could do it. The idea is that a larger force is slow and noticeable, while a smaller force can be moved in secret. To express this, if we allow fake destinations in the description part of the turn post, should we enforce the fake destinations be of equal distance to the actual destination? That way, not only is it more believable, it helps out bookkeeping by being simpler. Since multiple regions are 1, 2, even 3 turns away, there's plenty of room for deception.

Lord William wrote:
Second, announcing new technologies. Not at first, no, but your spies will all learn of it eventually. I want to give people who complete research a head start of sorts.

I'm fine with that - will you at least announce that a project has been completed, so we can be sure that if they start a new project, they have a slot available?

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:05 pm

Well... No, the fake destination does not have to be the length of the actual travel. However, it cannot be longer than in reality, since the money/paper trail for that is easy to follow and your spies would know immediately if true length would be shorter than the given one. If it's shorter, easy. When the troops fail to arrive when they should, you know something's going on.

Yes, I'll announce that the player has completed a research.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:26 pm

Coolio. The main problem was that the fake destination would be further than the real one, right. A shorter fake destination is fine.

*edits*

I see you lurking, Lime, make sure you give your input on Espionage and what can/can't be hidden/bullshitted. I wanna put this in the DONE pile What a Face

What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face What a Face

pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:29 pm

Spymasters should be able to prevent other spymasters from doing stuff, or, at the very least, attempt to defend from other factions' spymasters.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:34 pm

I'm personally fine with that. Since Spymasters will show up in the bookkeeping as either Idle or Active, there's no way to know if one of them is in a region that you want to do a mission in. The GM would probably have to know, though, so he could take a friendly Spymaster into account when calculating success chance of an enemy mission.

Also, speaking of Agent bookkeeping, we shouldn't require players to list where their regular Agents are, right? I mean, if we allow them to keep the destination of Agents a secret (except Diplomats), then they shouldn't have to put it in the bookkeeping. However, in the case of, like, a Missionary, the destination is the thing that matters most... William will have to know where the Belief Index is shifting.

While I want the bookkeeping to be accurate, I don't necessarily want someone to find out information that was intended to be secret in the turn description just by opening the spoiler tag.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:41 pm

Yep, I will know where each of the spymasters are and when. An addition to the spymasters being exempt from bookkeeping is that you don't need to report dead spymasters. That's to protect the identity of a player whose spymaster has died on a mission but hasn't revealed any information on their origins to the enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:42 pm

What if we capture them alive?

Can we use Spies to torture other spies into giving up Information?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:51 pm

Yes, but success isn't guaranteed and the spymaster will try to escape.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 4:53 pm

Lord William wrote:
An addition to the spymasters being exempt from bookkeeping is that you don't need to report dead spymasters. That's to protect the identity of a player whose spymaster has died on a mission but hasn't revealed any information on their origins to the enemy.

The only issue I see with that is we have a limit on Spymasters. If I'm at my maximum number, one of them dies on a mission, I don't include it in the description or the bookkeeping, then I try to recruit another one, someone's going to be suspicious. If they Misinfo Check that action, would the truth come out?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:05 pm

Yes and no. If you openly declare you are recruiting another spymaster, there is nothing to use misinformation check on. Spymasters are immune to misinformation checks, since they're better than your average spies. However, if you know you killed someone's spymaster and see someone recruiting a spymaster... Well, you can count 1+1, right?

However, if someone mysteriously dedicates spymaster-recruitment resources into funding art for enriching the culture of their people, you can misinfo that and find out they're training a spymaster. While spymasters themselves can't be misinformation checked, the process of training one can.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:14 pm

Lord William wrote:
Yes and no. If you openly declare you are recruiting another spymaster, there is nothing to use misinformation check on. Spymasters are immune to misinformation checks, since they're better than your average spies. However, if you know you killed someone's spymaster and see someone recruiting a spymaster... Well, you can count 1+1, right?

However, if someone mysteriously dedicates spymaster-recruitment resources into funding art for enriching the culture of their people, you can misinfo that and find out they're training a spymaster. While spymasters themselves can't be misinformation checked, the process of training one can.

Okay then. Just to be sure we're on the same page, here's a quick example of what I envision in the bookkeeping.



Agents:

Spoiler:
 

If my single Active Spymaster is killed, it's not announced, but I'd have to reflect the loss in the bookkeeping (right?). Then, next turn, I can say "I dedicate 1,000 Gold to buy a pony for my daughter", which would of course be used to train a new Spymaster. I couldn't just make 1,000 Gold disappear for no reason, because (I need to add this to the breakdown) all resource gains/losses have to be accounted for.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:17 pm

No, you don't need to subtract a spymaster from your bookkeeping. You can appear to have two spymasters even if both of them had been killed. If a spymaster has died during a mission, his status will remain as "active". While a spymasters movements can't be misinformation checked, they may also not be lied about. You must mark your spymaster to be active if he is, and may not mark him active if he isn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:20 pm

I disagree with that. If a person, even a spy, no matter how good at spy work is dead, then he or she is inactive.

Besides, when you're training a new Spymaster, then he or she isn't doing anything, thus becoming inactive by default.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:25 pm

Lime, the idea is that the Spymaster who is killed was killed while being Active on a mission. I'm not worried about that part of it.

I *am* worried about the situation in which I have 5 Spymasters, the maximum, and one of them dies. I guess William is saying in that case, I could recruit another one without changing my bookkeeping, but I'd have to give a BS explanation. Or, I could choose to say "I'm recruiting another Spymaster", but then that would mean either A) I'm going over the max or B) One of my Spymasters has died.

Now, as I understand it, if I give a BS explanation and someone calls a Misinfo Check on it, then only the fact that I'm trying to recruit another Spymaster will be revealed. This obviously means that one of them is dead, so I'd adjust my bookkeeping then (making one less Active and one more Idle - the one I just recruited). However, the details of the mission the dead Spymaster was on would not be revealed, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:26 pm

No.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed May 29, 2013 5:27 pm

Actually, the logic behind the spymaster remaining active is easy enough: For all your spies know, the spymaster hasn't returned from his/her mission. Thus he must still be on it, right?

When you train a new spymaster, you're an idiot if you tell them you're doing it. It's going to ring warning bells anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Thu May 30, 2013 11:28 am

I want to learn more about William's innumerable multitude of telepathic, invisible spies that hide under tables and let us see what the other factions are doing (via their turn posts). I'm thinking what we can and can't hide in the turn description/bookkeeping is influenced by them.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Thu May 30, 2013 4:39 pm

You couldn't possibly know what your opponents every move they do on the other side of the world. Like, let's say you're Zamorak and your territories are all in Morytania. How on Gielinor can you possibly know that Seren is sending an army to Port Tyras? Obviously, you must have spies among the serenites. There is no other explanation. And since you know everything everyone does, there must obviously be a button of them crawling all over the world, poking at your foes.

Now, when your enemy attempts misdirection, he's actually sending false information down official channels while using secret channels to pass the real information. Misinfo can be either an attempt to hide the real orders or to flush your (and everyone else's) spies out. When you do a misinformation check, you're basically ordering your spies to focus on rooting out the truth behind misinformation. If the misinformation isn't covering anything, you've walked into a trap and a large portion of your spies are eliminated, and you will need to replace them if you want to mic again. In the process of eliminating your spies, the enemy spies are also securing their channels and eliminating other people's spies as well, meaning others can't misinfo check them, either.

It's just an explanation as to why stuff is as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 7:45 am

Err... No, not really...

There doesn't need to be an in depth reason why there is a description. It is there because it is.
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