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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 9:17 am

Nothing is there just because it is. Call me obsessed, but I really don't want to leave stuff unexplained.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 3:22 pm

It is there because that's how the game works. It's like how the arrow keys rotate the camera in RuneScape. There is no ultimate lore reason why, it's just a game mechanic. It is accepted without explanation, there is no reason to give it such depth.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 3:58 pm

Arrow keys rotating the camera is a control mechanism. This is a game aspect. No spies -> everyone has to pm me their turns and no one knows what the others are doing until I tell them. You can't possibly know what the others are doing on the other side of the world without informants and spies in their societies.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 4:01 pm

But the turnposts is a Game Aspect aswell. It's just like how we don't see RuneScape in FPS mode, or have to chant spells at the screen in order to cast stuff, or not have a minimap, or carry thousands of pounds in our backpacks without breaking a sweat or eat and entire shark in just one bite, in the middle of the fight, which somehow heals lots of damage.

None of this is Lore Based, it's just how the game works. Equally so with God Wars, the Turn posts is how the game works. We do not have a network of spies in every Empire, it's just that every nation has to post a turn-postm because that's how the game works.
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Jasband
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri May 31, 2013 4:15 pm

Lime, the explanation doesn't hurt anything. I just wanted to find out more because I want to know what William, as GM, will and will not allow to be hidden in turn posts/bookkeeping. To me, it seems that part or all of his judgment in that subject comes from the lore-reason as to why we know what other (player) factions are doing.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:57 am

The current situation in GW4 actually reminds me: nothing any of you will discover in someone else's bookkeeping carries any weight with the npc factions. That is, the Saradominists may declare they're going to attack Falador as openly as he wants, and no matter how much the Zarosians plead them to up their defences, they won't do it. Well, unless the Zarosians already had enough political power over Falador to make them do it anyway.

The reasoning behind this is that your spies can't provide you any sort of proof for any of their information given to you without risking themselves - and quite frankly, any attempt to use your passive spies to do anything will result in a horrible failure. If you want to provide proof, you should send a spymaster or something. Though if they're attacking Falador, the whole thing will probably be over by the time your spymaster has succeeded (or failed).
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:21 am

What about the NPC factions having spies? It has been a regular case that if I move an army into a region - if I declare that I do, in my turn description - the NPC faction will react appropriately. You're saying if I secretly move an army into a NPC region (i.e., hiding it in the bookkeeping), then they won't know about it until I arrive?
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:36 am

No. Of course, the npc states won't be just sitting around with double eyepatches on, but what they know and react to is more limited than what other players are doing. As a rule of thumb, the npc states will know every military action happening on their territory, and they will be aware of the current political winds in their immediate vicinity.

The npc states will not immediately know you're sending in an army, but once it comes close, they may be alerted to its presence and then react accordingly. Once it crosses their borders, they will 100% sure find out about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:08 pm

Fine by me. I may not have much time tomorrow or Monday, but I'll aim to get this finalized on Tuesday (AND do Construction. Yeah, good luck with that, Jascertes...)

Well, I can think of buildings/costs at work, it's just making the table that'll take some time.

William can work on writing/adjusting his lore, so we can at least get that out of the way.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Right, another thing considering espionage/misinformation:

I'm not obliged to disclose the truth or refrain from misleading others in my turn resolutions. That is, I can lie. Of course, I won't lie just for the fun of it, but usually when a ruse or a piece of misinformation requires cooperation from me, I do hoard myself the right to do so. Like, if Lime was conducting a secret research, say, a crucial component for his steam engine, but didn't want it know, he could ask me to congratulate him in my turn-end post for unraveling the mysteries of Ragnarök major spell, which causes the end of the world for 5,000 runes. For this matter, I will also require another rule-based right, which is complete freedom to do whatever I wish without any need for a reason. That's simply because I'm sure people would start whining at how I'm favoring Lime and yelling at me for not being allowed to do this and then throwing up all sorts of votes and stuff and then I'd be forced to reveal the ruse. With the power to do whatever the fuck I wish, I can just tell them to suck it and continue.

Of course, the gamemaster won't do whatever the heck he wishes for no reason at all. I will try to have a minimal influence on the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:30 am

Very well; I still want the truth to be found in the bookkeeping, however. If you included Ragnarök in the Seasonal Report instead of Lime's secret steam engine component, and Lime didn't include it in his list of completed technologies (because you went through the trouble of explaining what the spell is and how much it costs - IT'S OVERPOWERED LOLOL) the next turn, that would have to be able to be MC'd.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:52 pm

Sure, a misinformation check's target can be extended to include the Gamemaster's seasonal report. Lime can have the Ragnarök-spell be in his list of completed technologies however, like we discussed before on how secret research doesn't need to be disclosed immediately at the conclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:08 pm

Right, well we're going to have a lot of nasty surprises and hundreds of pages of rage. I hope you're ready, GM!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:47 am

Should have this done, now. All that stuff William mentioned about Seasonal Reports and "the right to do whatever the fuck I want!" will be included in the Rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:49 pm

In terms of NPC states...

Will William be making the backstory/personalities for each of them? Because if I'm sitting this game out, I would be willing to help out with the personal histories of the NPC factions <3
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:48 am

Sure, I'd welcome any and all help I can get without endangering the fairness there is. I'm going to have the final say, of course, but you can rest assured that I'm letting you participate in the game more than Veylantz currently lets me (that is, the behind-the-scenes stuff). "Battlemaster" is such a limiting term, we should go for "assistant gamemaster". Gives you more power and lets me tell you to make a turn report when I'm too lazy, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:24 pm

The GM will be responsible for a lot more, so I'm fine with having an assistant as such. I just didn't suggest it because I didn't think anyone wanted to take it on!
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:02 am

Alright, I'm glad our current situation in GW4 has shifted the spotlight to espionage and how to do it properly (and incorrectly).

One thing I want to cover is how often and how extensive PMing of the GM should be. If it gets to the point where you're doing 1 thing publically and 99 things in secret, that's ridiculous. In accordance with the rules laid down here about what you can and can't hide in the desc/bookkeeping, I think the following HAS to be PM'd to the GM:

1. Destination of Agents if not specified in the desc.
2. Scouting if not specified in the desc (I'll need to add a part in Military about scouting being secret).
3. Spymaster missions (if not specified).
4. Army destinations (if not specified).
5. Secret projects, research stuff.
6. Anything the GM requests clarification on.

I'd much rather limit PMs to these things and regular discussion. If you're going to perform some kind of secret action, you make a choice: Put it in the description (which wouldn't make it very secret) or put an excuse in the description - rebellious Menaphite soldiers, anyone? - because the bookkeeping will tell the truth. In GW3, my scenario was crazy and out-of-the-blue. If things go right in GW5, that scenario won't be so unusual, because random events and other such things will affect all player factions.

The whole point of the Misinformation Check is to look at information in the DESCRIPTION and challenge it against evidence in the BOOKKEEPING. It had nothing to do with research and I stand by that stance; if you want information on their secret project, SEND A SPYMASTER. If Toa had MC'd my "rebellious soldiers" story in GW3, I would've had to spill the beans. But he didn't, because it wasn't invented yet (lolol!). But even if it had been there, he wouldn't have done it because he wouldn't have checked my bookkeeping.

Also, NO edits after the Seasonal Report. Any editing, even a spelling mistake, risks invalidating the entire turn. Unless we find a way to find exactly what someone edited, like a Wiki (but I doubt it).
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:47 pm

Alright, so now that the misinformation check thing has come up, I think it's good to clarify exactly what I mean and how I see it.

In each and every turn post, resource, transaction and unit numbers must be accurate, and a reason that does not have to be truthful for each and every change in them must be publicly provided. This means you cannot announce to have more or less resources, gold or units stationary in each region than you actually do. This also means you cannot announce to move more or less resources, gold or units than you actually are. HOWEVER, you are allowed to announce untruthful destinations or purposes for moving resources, gold or units. In accordance with this, when an untruthful destination or purpose for relocated resources, gold or units is announced, the time it take to complete the relocation must be announced as equal to or shorter than the time it actually takes to do so. Research projects conducted by a player must be announced to begin, but their nature and goal can be untruthfully announced.

In this context, "turn post" refers to the complete and whole public report made by each player each turn. It does not separate the worded summary part from the bookkeeping, and both must obey by the rules stated above.

Misinformation check, hereby abbreviated as MI-check, is the act of challenging an announcement made by a player faction or a gamemaster in a turn post, or season conclusion report. Once challenged, the gamemaster will provide the truthful announcement privately to the player who used MI-check. (Unless he's in a bad mood, y'know, the GM can do whatever the heck he wishes.)

A special case with misinformation is the Spymaster unit. The special rulings of spymasters in relation to misinformation and MI-check are as follows:

The total number of spymasters controlled by a player must be announced to be at least as many as that player truly has, and the departure of a specific spymaster on a mission must be announced. For as long as a spymaster is announced to be on a mission, a spymaster cannot depart on another mission. A spymaster may not be indicated to not be on a mission when he is, but may be indicated to be on a mission when he is not. There must always be an indication of whether or not a specific spymaster is or is not on a mission.

Spymasters are immune to the MI-check.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:52 pm

I think that's the clearest and simplest way to lay it out, William. What's your stance on which actions can/can't be sent to you in PM? Lime, when you get back, I'd appreciate if you provided us with some of the PMs you sent to Veylantz so we can have examples of what one of the more... secretive players has sent to the GM.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:19 pm

If it is allowed to be lied about, I expect and in fact demand to know when and how you are lying about something. Since we are separating discussion from the actual game, I don't want to handle any arguments in PM. Of course, if secretive information is in a key role in an argument, it can't be avoided.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:17 am

Goodie.
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:14 pm

Jasband wrote:
I think that's the clearest and simplest way to lay it out, William. What's your stance on which actions can/can't be sent to you in PM? Lime, when you get back, I'd appreciate if you provided us with some of the PMs you sent to Veylantz so we can have examples of what one of the more... secretive players has sent to the GM.

[quote author="Typical Nardan Secret Turn"]To the Aurora: Call off the pursuit on the Sagacious. Head for the three Alysannian Vessels: The Shaikahan, the Moreau’s Revenge, and the Lion’s Belly. When you see them, tell them that there has been a Paperwork Mixup with their voyage to West End, and they’ll need to fill out a few legal documents. They shall be given 4,000 Pages of Paperwork in order to compensate, with standard legal procedure, court fees, etc. Each Crewman has to fill out this paperwork, or, alternatively, they can have the paperwork sailed to Alyxandria in order to be filled out, but in order to do this, they shall need to fill out a 50 page requisition order to get another 400 pages of paperwork in order to have a copy sent to Alyxandria, where they shall have to deal with a 50,000 word binding document stating that the Ships be allowed to continue. Additionally, this mishap may have been due to a Filing Error of other millions of sheets of paperwork that pulse through the veins of Nardan Bureaucracy each day, and, in a turn when the Paperwork comes back in order, the Alysannian Captains can fill out an additional 87 pages of Paperwork each to receive a template-based apology and a consolatory citrus fruit-basket.

The crew of the above mission are informed that this tactic is designed to stall the Alysannians from arriving in West End, so that the Nardans can grab the region out from under their noses. Since they are simple crewmembers, it’s very likely that the sneaky Alysannians will be able to find out this purpose.

To the Heart of Gold: Step on it! I don’t care if the boiler itself screams and sparks, get to West End! When you get there, the instructions are simple: If the territory is uninhabited, claim it. If there is a friendly faction there, make contact and introduce us in the usual manner. Otherwise, stay off the coast, out of range, send back correspondence, and await further instruction.

To the Wizards’ Tower: We have uncovered an Arcane Temple in the Jaldraocht region. Legend surrounds this pyramid, specifically that it was once the prison of Azzanadra, a powerful Zarosian Mahjarrat. Regardless of what it once was, we have found an altar covered in Arcanic symbols. As such, we will be sending Cengiz Han to investigate. Additionally, we invite some more Tower Wizards to join in this expedition.

We also clarify some things to the Tower, and also to Fate: In all honesty, the Djinnlords Program is very farm from it’s goals. Right now, the idea is more of a proof-of-concept: We’ll be able to summon some varieties of Djinns. The Realm that we shall be summoning these Djinns from is brutal, and Chaotic, much like its inhabitants. Therefore, Summoners will have to focus on keeping their Djinns in check. In the future, we hope to find more Benevolent Djinns, that will willingly fight alongside the Mages who summon them from their home realm. However, the awkward uses of the current Djinns also play in our favor this time around. The Summoners, should they die, are capable of letting lose their djinn upon their own ranks! Since the Bandosians will not be participating in Future Djinn Research, this is a gambit in causing the Bandosians to harm themselves in Battle, should they prove themselves unworthy to use the Djinn. The Foolish Bandosians have accepted this deal with no second thought of the consequences. Perhaps this is a good example of which nation is the more intelligent of the two…

To Falador, would it be alright if Sultana Valide al-Liyam, her family, and a Bodyguard group of 50 Assassins visits the City of Falador in order to finally personally meet a Very good Business partner and an even better friend of Falador?

The Disbanded troops were actually gifted to the Bedabin Camp! They shall be bravely serving to defend the Bedabin lands! Let it be known that we shall stand by the Bedabins, friends of Nardah, for now and for eternity, while the vile Alysannians dishonorably attack a city that they have no reason to bear hatred for, nor have even met!

The Assassins of the Northwest Desert are asked if they could possibly pin-point where the Queen is? Also, incantors are asked, theoretically, how many runes would it take to Hijack the Kalphite Hive-mind?

Assassins in Nardah are to stall progress on DJN-1. Be completely unseen, the Bandosian Scientist should not notice you are even there. Stall progress until a time which SCS-1 is completed. However, do not completely freeze progress, just make it seem that research is taking doubly, triply, or even four times as long as expected.

You know what, we just want reports on the status of each of the researches in general, aswell.
[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:04 pm

...Great Guthix....

...

You do realize I'm part of the Buried Hatchet, thus obligated to send this info to Toa, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Diplomacy | Espionage   Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:30 pm

Most of this is dated anyways.

Except for the Bedabin Part. Do NOT send the Bedabin part.

Or the Wizards' Tower part.

Actually, you can't send any of it. They'll wonder how you came across it, and either way, it makes you look bad.
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