HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Conquest Rebalance

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Limes

avatar

Posts : 301
Ignore This Number : 311
Join date : 2013-04-29

PostSubject: Conquest Rebalance   Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:28 pm

So, I don’t feel that the current way to convert a region through non-military means is currently good enough. Militarism still is clearly the easiest way to conquer a region because it’s short, and there’s little actual drawback, partially against the NPC regions, but mostly in a PVP scenario: The Systems in place to convert a region owned by a player are currently Poor at best. Additionally, the method to convert a region to your culture and faction are murky at best: We have two entirely different systems, Religion and Diplomacy. This makes it hard for players to get into. Finally, I feel like there’s nothing in this game to prevent a problem that was in previous God Wars Games, as well as many Strategy Games: The Match is essentially won in the beginning.

For these reasons, I say we completely restructure the conversion system so that conversion is balanced between three aspects, Religion, Diplomacy, and Trade, and unify the three into one system. We should also additionally institute an Anarchy period when taking over a region, which would additionally solve the Regional Ownership problem that you brought up with Advanced Regions. Before we go any further, I’d like to say that any part of this can be removed, tweaked, redone, or otherwise modified: this is just a concept right now, but I feel as if it is a very good concept and would go a long way to helping improve the Game’s Balance and Politics.

New Additions:
Now, in order to create a system where there are three things to balance between, it is necessary to add a third item to the mix of Conversion. In Addition to Religion and Diplomacy being put under Conversion, I would suggest that we add Trade. As for how Trade or Economics could work in such a scenario, that’ll be explained later.  However, the main point is to add a brand new Conversion Agent, like the Diplomat or the Priest, and a brand new accompanying building. This unit will be the “Merchant”, and his building shall be the “Trading Post”. The theoretically costs will be explained later.

Minor Changes:
To create a better balance between the three conversion elements, I suggest that we also do a few minor changes to existing buildings and agents. All Conversion Units, the Diplomat, the Missionary, and the Merchant, should cost the exact same amount the recruit, and the exact same amount in upkeep. They are all given the same basic function: The ability to establish contact with an NPC region, and to serve as a diplomatic link to said region. Where they differ should be in their high functions, which will be explained later.

The Buildings for these Conversion Agents should also be modified in the exact same way: They should all cost the exact same in order to construct(5,000 wood, 5,000 Stone, 5,000 Gold, and 2 Turns to build), and the same amount to upgrade(2,000 Metal, 2,000 Cloth, 4,000 Gold, and two turns, for example). They should all increase the agent maximum by the same amount, so that is possible to have either 5 or 6 of each agent.

Finally, in order to facilitate the PvP Conversion, I believe that it’s necessary to give an additional function to the Spymaster: The ability to bribe a Player-Held-Region’s Guards. The purpose of this will be explained in the PvP area.

Conceptual Changes:
The whole purpose of this change is to balance Militarism and Conversion, which is a balance between Trade, Diplomacy and Religion. Since Militarism is fundamentally more powerful in its current state than Conversion, I suggest we buff Conversion in the following ways, and Slightly nerf Militarism in the ways following the changes to Conversion.

Conversion Change:

Firstly, if it wasn’t clear enough already, Conversion no longer is based on solely Religion. It’s based on your Social Influence on a region: A Combination of Religious, Economic, and Diplomatic Influence (I call it “RED Influence,” or Social Influence.)

The power structure of a region is essentially made up 33% of the region’s power being held by three classes: The Nobility, the Middle Class, and the Peasants(Side note: While the Population is heavily balanced in favor of the Peasants, the Economic power is heavily balanced in favor of the Merchants, and the actual political power is heavily balanced in favor of the Nobles, this power is a combination of everything, and then simplified. We could call this “Social Power” if you like). These people and their classes are COMPLETELY SEPARATE from regional personalities, and they are only represented by their percentile, or as a collective opinion.

In order to claim a region, the owner must have AT LEAST 50<% control over the Social Power of the region. This could be any combination of the population: Controlling 25% of the 33% of both the Merchants and the Nobility with 1 of the Peasants, or it could be the 33% of the Peasants while having 9% each of the other groups. Any combination that gets you OVER the 50% barrier works, and delivers you the region.

When control over a region is established, the region will gravitate towards 75% of the population, anything that you DIDN’T manually convert will be automatically split between the three classes, unless something is done by the occupying government to either upset or appease the local people, or an exterior government attempts to use the very same techniques of conversion to wrest control of the region. The occupying faction will technically continue to have the region until an outside empire gains over 50% conversion, however dropping below 20% will result in warnings and civil unease, and dropping below 10% could result in a Rebellion. A Rebellion in one region could cause neighboring unhappy regions to also rebel.

Militarism Change:

Militaristically taking over a region will result in a brief period of Noncontrol (0 turns for Wild, 2 Turns for Settled, and 4 turns for Advance). The region cannot be used during this time (Taxes cannot be collected, buildings cannot be built or repaired, soldiers cannot be recruited, the region CAN be teleported to, and resource modifiers cannot be used), and the time period resets every time to region changes hands during the period of Anarchy. (This mechanic can also be put for regions that are under siege or under attack by an invading army, thus solving another problem we had)

Additionally, Militaristically taking over a region may be met with a tarnishing of Reputation with surrounding NPCs. They will be less willing to associate with you(however, they won't spread the bad name of you to anywhere but their immediate surroundings, who will not spread it further unless they themselves are threatened), and they may choose to build up larger armies for the purpose of Defense.

NPC Conversion:
Before anything can be done, a Conversion Agent must first initialize himself into the region in order to set up his or her operations. Each one will require a period of 3 turns and various resources to set up.

Missionary: 3 Turns setting up a Church
Merchant: 3 Turns Establishing Trade Ties and starting a Shop
Diplomat: 3 Turns Schmoozing

Additionally, each Conversion agent effects one of the three Classes in a region:

Merchants affect the Middle Class the most.
Missionaries affect the Peasants the most.
Diplomats affect the Nobles the most.

For each Conversion agent, there are two ways to convert the populace and increase your power in a region: A Slow, Passive Way that will require no additional resources or player input, and a Fast, Active Way, that may require additional resources, or player input in the form of Actions, Advice, or Role-play. Additionally, there is a Side Function each individual unit can do.

Missionary:
Passive: Hold Church Services in the Church
Active: Holding Mass Sermons, baptizing, holding a Religious Festival in the Central Area of the Region. Performing a Miracle (lolgoodluckwiththat)
Side Function: Pilgrimage (Essentially, it’s bringing a certain number of people, Nobles, Peasants, Middle-Class, to your capital, the holy city of that religion. Using Conversion tactics in the Capital while those people are there will have significant impacts on them, and will bring lots of influence back)

Merchant:
Passive: Trading within the Region
Active: Finding an Apprentice for the Merchant, and advising him or her on how to run a business from within the region.
Side Function: Creating Trade Ties between nations

Diplomat:
Passive: Sitting in on Town Hall Meetings
Active: Negotiating or Moderating Negotiations between Nobles, Helping draft Laws in the region, Advising Nobles within a Region.
Side Function: Creating Alliances, and other political agreements

Finally, Agents have a purely Active way of converting a region if they are working together, and is designed for maximum payout. In order to do this, two or more Allied agents should be working together at once in order to make a Public Works' Project. The Priest installs such an idea into the public's mind, while the Diplomat secures the ceremonies and orders the bureaucracy for it, while the Merchant foots the bill with the help of your empire and any contacts he's developed. While it is possible to be done with only two agents, three agents at once makes the process go faster and receive more payout. The public work in question is player-pitched: Much like a Science. The Gamemaster would return with the resources necessary, and the gears would be put in motion, with the Gamemaster returning when the Project has met the Halfway point(Other logic: If you’re keeping track of how far the project is from completion, you might as well give the player doing them your , has reached completion, or has encountered any significant resistance by any opposing factions.

PvP Conversion:
Offensive:
Similar to how to capture a non-player-run region, however a SPYMASTER must be used in order to bribe the soldiers who may be in or around the area. This can be countered with the Patrol of Soldiers between regions, and could risk blowing the operation. In order to convert an Enemy-held region, it is impossible to have any active way to do so, as it would draw too much attention to your activities. However, the bribing of the guard by a Spymaster means that the passive way to convert a region is significantly improved. Once the guard has been bribed, it will stay bribed for up to 10 turns (or, until moved to a different region), and will require a Spymaster to return and refresh the bribe.

Defensive:
In order to hold a region, several techniques can be used. Firstly, having a system where causing the Guards to rotate every few turns would render the patrolling obsolete. Secondly, a Spymaster on your side can go in and either Capture the enemy Conversion Agent and allow you to use him for ransom, Kill the enemy Conversion Agent, and set an example in your region to any Conversion Agents that come (and therefore lowering any other agent’s ability to operate in region besides your own), or to Assassinate the Conversion Agent and Pose as him, allowing you to head right back to your enemy’s territory once the job is done. Additionally, having one of your own conversion agents come to region will allow you to rebuild some of your local reputation and counter any enemy.

Naturally, the owner of the region has the advantage in any PvP region scenario, unless they abuse the region. When the owner owns a region, they can use the same conversion agents to continue converting the region at a much larger rate than when it wasn’t their region.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jasband
Admin
avatar

Posts : 395
Ignore This Number : 456
Join date : 2013-04-28

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:01 am

Not bad. Keep in mind that both Conversion and Diplomacy were meant to accompany the Dissent mechanic, which I moved away from due to the possibly large amount of micromanagement it would involve (though it was always meant to apply only to regions on your borders; unless something happened, like a natural disaster, interior regions close to your capital were never meant to go below 100% Happiness). If necessary, we can reintroduce and properly develop Dissent.

A rough overview:

Da Good

  1. Having Agents "set up" in a region before they can do things. I don't think it should require resources, though, as the Agents moving with Caravans would not only be suspicious, it would be impractical. The Agents are smart enough to find existing resources they could use in the region they're visiting; e.g., the Missionary can find an abandoned church and get the local townspeople to help him repair it.
  2. Adding Merchants as another Agent and standardizing the cost to recruit/build their facilities. I know Lime always wanted "trade" to be its own power, outside of Diplomacy (even though you can't have trade between nations without diplomacy).
  3. Having some type of active function for each Agent that would help speed up the conversion (while increasing notability).

Da Meh

  1. Splitting the population into 3 classes for every region (and then expecting those classes to be an even 33% each). I know, the rework would be difficult if each Agent didn't correspond to a class, but it shouldn't be hard to say, for instance, Wild regions have 75% peasants and 25% middle class, Settled regions have 50% peasants, 40% middle class, 10% nobles, and Advanced regions have 25% peasants, 50% middle class, and 25% nobles. As far as conversion, for each type of region you'd need to convert 2 of the 3 classes to spark a Rebellion, which may or may not succeed.
  2. Limiting the Spymaster to PvP situations. Who says NPC territories don't have Guards? In fact, NPCs are more likely to have garrisons because they don't expand as eagerly as player empires.
  3. Public Works Project. Doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of Agents who work secretly to win a region's people over.

Da Bad

  1. Anarchy. Again, with the Dissent mechanic, conquering a region militarily would have proper consequence, but there's no reason to stop players from using what they've just sacrificed hundreds or thousands of troops to take. Remember, we also have a damaged buildings mechanic, so if conquering a city damages most of its buildings (either by siege action or by the defenders destroying things out of spite), that would work better. I do like contested territories (under siege or under attack) suffering from it, though.
  2. Mentioning that conquering a region militarily has a Reputation effect. We already knew that :'(
  3. Expecting people to keep Agents in their own territories to combat the work of foreign Agents who might be sneaking in. With the limited cap, each Agent is designed primarily to work in other factions' regions; buildings should provide the passive Conversion defenses, though it means I'll have to rewrite the buildings tables. For instance, Market: +25% middle class loyalty, Church: +50% peasant loyalty, etc.

We can definitely work with what you've laid out.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://gw5sbox.forumotion.com
Unguis



Posts : 9
Ignore This Number : 9
Join date : 2013-10-12
Age : 22
Location : Kandarin

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:03 pm

Jasband, you need to remember that the 33% would not necessarily be population, but also influence. There may be a ton more peasants than noblemen, but nobles also have a ton more influence than commoners. I think somewhere around even is a fair distribution.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lord William

avatar

Posts : 320
Ignore This Number : 322
Join date : 2013-04-29

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:12 pm

Actually, I discussed this in detail with Lime over Skype. Basically, it turns out all this already exists. Religious conversion isn't its own mechanic, it's part of diplomacy. For a higher level of engagement with the diplomatic takeover, however, your primary interactions are with the region npcs (who aren't necessarily all nobles), whose reactions reflect your growing social power over economic, religious and political sectors. Not only that, they also react on a personal level to the deeds of your agents and paragons.

Oh, and no merchant agent, diplomats and caravans together annul the need for a merchant.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Toa Takanuva



Posts : 43
Ignore This Number : 43
Join date : 2013-10-12
Location : Somewhere in the universe.

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:10 am

Now there is suddenly a burst of forum activity through weeks of inactivity? Lol.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sirok

avatar

Posts : 108
Ignore This Number : 120
Join date : 2013-05-25
Age : 24

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:34 am

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Toa Takanuva



Posts : 43
Ignore This Number : 43
Join date : 2013-10-12
Location : Somewhere in the universe.

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:08 am

what in the name of-

...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Limes

avatar

Posts : 301
Ignore This Number : 311
Join date : 2013-04-29

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:36 pm

I just left this up here to see how many people would look at the current system which is exactly the same and say "Yeah, this is better!" or "No, this sucks!"

But the underlying message of it now is that we need to update those damn drafts.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jasband
Admin
avatar

Posts : 395
Ignore This Number : 456
Join date : 2013-04-28

PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:38 pm

Limes wrote:
exactly the same
Since when have we had economic classes? We have Notable People, not 33% peasants.

Also, what drafts need updating? Very Happy

*Lime goes offline* -_-
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://gw5sbox.forumotion.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Conquest Rebalance   

Back to top Go down
 
Conquest Rebalance
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
 :: Discussions-
Jump to: