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Jasband
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PostSubject: Research & Technologies   Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:02 am

Discuss research here. Currently:

Technologies will be "flipped" from the way they are now. Instead of splitting research into predefined "trees" and more variable custom projects, there will be two intertwined types:

1. Basic Research - this is basically the establishment of theories and the gathering of data and evidence to support the development of applicable technologies in the future.
2. Applied Research - using the theories and data acquired through basic research to develop technologies that can be used in the game.

Basic Research is split into 7-9 "fields" as follows:

Engineering
Chemistry
Runic Physics
Arcanics
Philosophy
Economy
Military Code

Each of these "fields" will have a starting concept that will have a defined Gold cost and length. Subsequent research projects in each field will have a variable cost and length, dependent on the GM.

(I'm actually still a bit unclear about the above - we're not plotting out each field as a tech tree, are we?)

Applied Research will always have a variable cost and length, and it may require one or more concepts developed in the Basic Research fields.

In terms of "trading" technologies, it would be allowed, but the faction that receives an already-researched concept would need to spend some time "learning" it and fitting it to their society. This will not take as long as discovering the concept itself, but will provide a means of balance.

Alliances (might?) will be able to conduct joint research. (I'm unsure if you want this to apply to Basic Research, Applied Research - so long as both factions have the same or similar Basic Research concepts learned - or both).

Initially, each faction could only research 4 things at a time. It doesn't matter if it's 4 Basic Research projects, or 4 Applied Research projects, or a mix of the two. Universities would increase the number of simultaneous projects, while Research Centers would increase the speed of each endeavor.

As of right now, it seems better to NOT allow artifacts to be disassembled. Any benefits of doing so can be conferred through Paragons instead, which make more sense with the new research system.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:32 pm

I do not feel like we should plot out the basic research because that seems a lot more restrictive for the player. I feel like we should have one base research for each of the fields, and have the player build off from there. It allows for more freedom and more creativity.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:38 pm

Like I've said, I want to discourage the metagaming in thinking "I want steam power - what will I need to do it" and then only researching things that will lead you there. I know that me forcing everyone to progress the same basic path is far from ideal, but unfortunately that is the price that I am willing to pay. I want people to truly gauge the effort vs. reward in advancing to the next basic research and building applied research from what they already have. This won't succeed if players only tunnel their way to their end goals as fast as possible.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:42 pm

But outlining it that way will ENCOURAGE thinking like that because then, people will just look at the tree, say "Oh, Steam Power is right there, and I can get to it by researching only ______, ________, and ___________. I'll get there in about 40 Turns!" And then focus on almost no other research.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:47 pm

Actually, I wouldn't be revealing any technologies besides the next. Because you know, how on Gielinor would you know what comes after your current research?
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:51 pm

Oh.

So you, singlehandedly, would be designing the Technology tree?

I'd be alright with that.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Not sure if sarcasm.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:35 pm

It's not.

However, I'm still worried that you'll miss some things.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:37 pm

Then go ahead and give your own suggestions for the progress of some paths. I'll consider them, but won't promise anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:50 pm

So we're NOT plotting out the trees? Alright. Well, at least, the trees won't be plotted out for the public. William will probably make some nice charts for himself, though.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:53 pm

I will. You can go ahead and do some suggestions as well, I do not even pretend to be omniscient and omnipotent in these things - help will be appreciated. The bad thing here is that I can only accept limited suggestions.
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Limes

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:28 pm

Suggestions for Ends:

Pretty much up to 1920 for Technology, like, Fluid Dynamics, Advanced Alloys, Basic Knowledge of Elements, some advanced machines, etc.
For Magic, I'd suggest that Advanced Thaumaturgy, Inherent Magical Ability (Figuring out how to use inherent Magical Ability, like the Lunar Mages, instead of runes) Artifact Science (Creation of Minor Artifacts), And Magical Tongue(Conversion, Trade) for Philosophy. For Philosophy, I'd also recommend "Advanced Scientific Method" (SCIENCE), Advanced Religion, Espionage, etc.

For Economy, I'd reccommend some different forms of Industry (Socialism/Capitalism) Along with the Factory System, Advanced Industrial Setup, Slave Labor, etc. Bunch of economic stuff, bunch of different types of Industry (Fishing, Whaling, Agricultural, Manufacture, Steelmills, Forges, Granaries, Looms, Banking, and lots more!)

Finally, for Military Code, I'd recommend:
-Organized Formation
-Bravery and Valour
-Bloodlust & Revenge
-Berserker Rage (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD)
-Marksmanship
-Advanced Training

etc.

(That was probably the worst formatting ever)
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:37 pm

Yes, it was. I'll consider them.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Wed May 01, 2013 6:31 pm

I don't have any particular ideas at the moment, because I'm not sure how broad/specific we want to be :[
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 09, 2013 7:45 am

Alright, after a few failed attempts to do what I should have done with plotting the research fields, I'm starting to lean on Lime's direction with how the players should be given the freedom to plot their own course through them, with reason, of course. It's simply due to the fact that the fields are just far too broad for me to dictate which discoveries come first.

Now, for research trading, I also propose the following: Either you have a professor spend a number of seasons writing the "guide" for their tehnology, which then gets sent over to the receiving party, who then has to spend time studying it, or you send a professor to their lands to teach it right away. The latter should be faster than the former.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 09, 2013 4:37 pm

Yes, a safe, slow route or a fast, risky route. I like it.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 09, 2013 6:26 pm

I'm still a bit weary of the idea - if William can't figure out how to progress through basic technologies, how will everyone else? They'll each have their own ideas, and there will be no standards - but charting out specific paths is definitely not easy. I think the real deciding factor will be when we we start playtesting. When I write up the draft, we'll do it more Lime's way.
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Thu May 09, 2013 7:11 pm

The problem isn't that I couldn't judge a progression path. The problem is with me dictating a stone-set path the theory progresses through. Even though some theories came later than others, there's no real reason why they couldn't have been discovered earlier. That's why I want to let the players try to find their own means to their wanted ends. I will judge if the progression is doable or not. I just hope I can be educated enough to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 10, 2013 9:20 am

My guess is that players will try to progress too quickly. I don't know, it'd be nice to have some standards. There's no real good way to tackle this unless we limit it, like almost every video game in history has done.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Fri May 10, 2013 11:24 am

If players want to do it faster, I will quite frankly tell them it can't be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Mon May 27, 2013 2:35 pm

I know this looks horrible :<

Engineering:

Weighted Arm – Improved Catapults
Advanced Gunpowder – Improved Cannons
Steam Engine – Faster Vehicle travel
Artisan's Workshop – Decreases cost of upgrading troops a tier


Chemistry

Herblore – Access to various potions that can be made
Steam Power – Access to the Steam Boiler for greater resource collection (New strong tool)
Runic Cores – Rune resource modifier
Overload Potion – Access to extreme potions that can be made


Runic Theory

Inherent Magic – Decreased rune cost when casting major spells
Abyssal Studies – Decreased rune cost when teleporting
Enhanced Studying – Objects in study have a higher chance of being revealed faster
Minor Artifact Crafting – Minor artifacts can be proposed and created


Arcanics

Aegis – Antithesis of Firestorm
Casting Enhancement – Aegis and Firestorm are more effective
Thaumaturgy – Major spell that heals a percent of damage to paragons and agents
Religious Hymns – Increased effectiveness of Priests


Philosophy

Common Good – Slight increase of workforce
Advanced Religion – Improved effectiveness of missionaries
Advanced Scientific Method – Custom research projects take one stage less to complete
Industry – Increased National Income

Economy

Deferred Investment – Decreased cost to building buildings
Efficient Construction – Decreased time in building buildings
Specialized Buildings – Access to Agent buildings
Espionage Ring – Improved Espionage activity


Military Code

Organized Formation – Armies can hold more formations when in battle
Advanced Scouting – Scouting reports are better and return faster
Superior Battlemetns – 8 cannons added to new ships
National Anthem – “Major spell” that increases morale
Recruitment Drive – Decreased upkeep of specialized troops

***************************************************

All paths to the "Advanced" stages take about 13 research projects. I understand that's a lot... Perhaps we could allow "Concurrent research?"
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Lord William

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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Mon May 27, 2013 3:03 pm

Well, that is not what we had in mind. That's all applied research, when the idea was to have basic and applied research, where basic is basically the trunk of the progression tree, and applied were the branches. The tree will keep on growing and growing, endlessly, but not just from the branches. It will also go taller. There is no distinction between "Advanced" and "simple" or "Basic" research, rather I'd like all research to be something proposed by the player.

Oh right, basic research is theory, applied is applying the theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Mon May 27, 2013 3:07 pm

Ahhh, Kk. I misunderstood <3
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Mon May 27, 2013 3:16 pm

It's good work, though. We could use a little bit of guidance as to what level of technology the game starts. Like an example two basic researches for each field...
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PostSubject: Re: Research & Technologies   Mon May 27, 2013 7:26 pm

I'm still heavily brooding on this system at work, even though we feel like we've reached a good point with it. I feel it needs a bit more structure, a way for players to have at least an expectation of, well, what to expect, without having things so clearly black-and-white that there's no variables in research at all.

Right now, I feel like the best way to do this is stages.

All basic research would have one stage: Discovery. Whether it's a new theory, new knowledge, or a new method to do something, it's completed in one stage. The success chance will depend on what the player wants to achieve and the GM's judgment. An estimate of how many turns it'll take may or may not be possible to produce.

All applied research would have AT LEAST two stages: Concept and Delivery. There may be a great number of stages in between, once again depending on how ambitious the proposal is and the GM's judgment. Each stage would have a chance to succeed, like basic research. Each stage may or may not require a basic research project to be completed first; for instance, a stage which requires the fabrication of a very complex machine part might require a basic research project like "Advanced Metallurgy".

The biggest issue I see is still the lack of standardization in basic research. I know it's not easy, though.
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